The National’s Matt Berninger and Bright Eyes/Desaparecidos frontman Conor Oberst sat down together for The Talkhouse, delivering a fascinating hour-long conversation where they pick each other’s brain on songwriting and the nuances that make them two of the most unique lyricists out there. 

“If you’re playing it safe, nobody’s going to give a fuck,” Berninger says at one point. Oberst reads the lyrics to The National’s High Violet tune “Lemon World,” citing it as one of his favorites (He also mentions the first National song he ever heard was “All the Wine”). “I’d always take a risk on some line that someday I might be embarrassed by,” Oberst adds. 

The conversation leads to some of their favorite songwriters, as Oberst cites John Prine, Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen as his most influential while Berninger also mentioned Cohen (it can be assumed this was recorded prior to Cohen’s death, as the subject isn’t covered), Cat Power and several others. The Cohen agreement led to a breakdown of some of their favorite songs of his, particularly “Don’t Go Home with Your Hard-On,” leading to a discussion about dick jokes in lyrics.

“It’s about his dick,” Berninger says. “And that’s Leonard Cohen and he’s singing about his boner.” The National frontman goes on to say “there’s way too many” dick jokes in his music. “If I’m starting to worry about embarrassing myself, I should start doing something else.”

Listen to the full episode below.